OK Radio (recast)

“the process of working is the process of unveiling something that is already there” Pavol Liska
Nature Theater of Oklahoma directors Kelly Copper and Pavol Liska talk to artists, curators and people around the world as well as making work, being revolutionary and following their desires to ride loud motorbikes through the streets of New York! Their podcast OK Radio (iTunes link) was part of the inspiration to begin Wombat Radio.
“all i know is what art had done to me” Pavol Liska
“you have to start with faith” – Pavol Liska
“it’s still a way to feel connected to people” Kelly Copper
we talk about:
  • what is what i’m doing, doing to me and to the world
  • self medication
  • success and struggle
  • finding joy vs enjoying the pain
  • community
  • not following in your own crisis
  • only worrying about doing the work well
  • the point of diminishing returns
“what does religion do? nothing!” like art – Pavol Liska
  • the power of exposure
“I grew up in communism and believed in one thing whole heartedly and then the revolution came and the next day i believed something else just as wholeheartedly” Pavol Liska
  • living in a relative state of mind
  • philosophy being in vogue
  • everyone having questions
  • living with absolute statements vs relative truths
“It’s hard to (use art to) provoke when they must put a warning outside the theatre about anything that might provoke you” – Kelly Copper
  • the artist feeling that they need to reassure the audience that they are on the side of the angels
  • artistic pornography
“trick the audience into coming there and then staying there” – Pavol Liska
  • pandering vs elitism
  • flirting with trouble
  • conduct
“I have got in trouble for things, that I did not believe was wrong” – Pavol Liska
  • invitation, provocation, and boundaries
  • having access to embody anyone, hitler or jesus. molesters or angels
  • giving up on absolutes
“I couldn’t call myself a good guy, I know myself too well” – Pavol Liska
  • never intending harm
“I hate that there are things (politically that) we can’t touch” – Kelly Copper
“I don’t know any other way to fix it than to keep making work” – Pavol Liska
“my role models, all got in trouble” – Pavol Liska
  • the world of performance
  • what makes up your language and vocabulary
  • legacy
“the art sometimes has to behave badly” – Kelly Copper
[theatre] “It’s a place for intuition and dreaming and a space for nightmares” –  Pavol Liska
  • expanding rules
  • in art you have to push yourself past discomfort around your ideas and rules
  • sushi vs schnitzel
“as soon as you push back against the radicals, you become the conservative?” Matt Cornell
  • moving to America after your formative years
“you don’t know and you can’t know and at some point you just have to take a risk… And work on that” – Pavol Liska
“the alien perspective on any kind of problem is always useful” – Pavol Liska
  • feeling outside of it all
  • responsibilities to the craft
  • separation state and church – separate art from politics
  • when philosophy was what a normal person did
“thinking about how thoughts are formed” – Pavol Liska
“perhaps the bravest thing to do is to change your mind” – Matt Cornell
  • understanding that there is more
  • hallucinatory drugs not equaling the force and lasting impact of a discovery when you are most sober
  • making yourself available
  • heritage, identity and legacy
  • shifting ambition
  • extending pleasure
  • the unanswered
  • quitting several times
  • ambition
  • falling in love as part of the process
  • having a shared dream
  • contracts vs agreement
  • divergent dreams
  • projects responding to a specific need
  • following your passion blindly
  • following impulses to expand
  • quitting when you exhaust the relationships
  • anti intellectualism, thought, nuance, ambiguity
  • doing something and then doing it better
  • getting motorcycles and riding off into the sunset
  • being a force for gentrification
  • when artistic community moves away from your city
  • new york life
  • the narrowing force of normality
“maybe it will turn into nothing but happiness” – Pavol Liska
“professional responsibility of curiosity” – Matt Cornell
  • the art of show: trickery, con, seduction
  • the audience has a choice
  • leaving or not leaving shows
“If you’ve never made a show then you have no idea” – Pavol Liska
film – Jiro dreams of sushi 🍣
film – gadar
project – the gif of dance
project – the blokes project
kate harman
tony morrison
james joyce
hifi store Lismore – the audio room

Eugene Choi – (episode 199)

“I don’t need to put it on my to-do list, I just do it” – Eugene Choi talking about dancing.


“I think my work is about intimacy and connection… but isn’t all work?.. good work at least?” – Eugene Choi


Eugene Choi is totally rad and compassionate and genius!

We sung michael jackson – heal the world and talked around:

  • being anemic and still being friendly
  • making  a plan
  • residencies
  • plaster slabs
  • art school
  • sydney festival
  • ambition
  • Scum Ballet at artspace
  • having a practise as an artist and having side gigs as a performer
  • underbelly arts festival with marcus whale
  • being an inert body vs becoming a performer

I call myself a sculpter even those most of my work is performative – Eugene Choi

  • family and making work about them
  • making work to avoid awkward conversations
  • being confused

“what means a lot to me is living as an asian in Australia” – Eugene Choi

  • language barriers
  • languages of intimacy
  • growing up in the north shore

I hate the cheese but i’m all cheese – Eugene Choi

  • the cost of the always working parent
  • internalised racism
  • being passionately melancholic

I’m not making work for them, I’m making work for me – Eugene Choi

  • doing a lot of things
  • effort and hope

Aren’t we all crazy? – Eugene Choi


  • thinking about love and making work
  • deadlines
  • controlling your work
  • juxtaposing your object with your body
  • video work
  • isolating oneself while working
  • feeling responsible for people
  • clichès
  • making autobiographical work
  • drinking lots of water

Ideally I just wanna be making work all the time – Eugene Choi


people mentioned:


Emma Fishwick 2018

Emma Fishwick makes dance, text and image. I find her incredibly inspiring and this discussion wanders through both our interests around considering culture, body, language, paradigm and more.


we talk around:

  • writing an exegesis
  • not dreaming
  • fringe ideas
  • getting better at thinking in words
  • interface
  • desires
  • scrutiny
  • going to a pistol range
  • the unknown
  • codification for the sake of legibility at the expense of nuance
  • thinking (or not) about the audience
  • when it’s not fun
  • landscapes
  • one day maybe being held in esteem
  • perspective


more info on emma’s work here:

  • https://www.performinglines.org.au/projects/yonder/
  • https://bundanon.com.au/residents/emma-fishwick/
  • https://www.instagram.com/ejessamine/
  • https://vimeo.com/user6271786
  • www.emmafishwick.com


past podcast here


people mentioned:



Roslyn Helper – (Episode 197)

“art is an act of empathy” Roslyn Helper
“art generally is for everyone but not all art is for all people” – Roslyn Helper
“my thoughts are trying to explain something that I felt” – Roslyn Helper

[my aim is] “creating spaces in art to make those feelings and thoughts and experiences valid and hope that other people will empathise or understand.. and enter into that world to make it even more real” – Roslyn Helper

Roslyn Helper curates and makes art and performs art and makes music in bands and plays soccer and thinks deeply and speaks insightfully.

I thoroughly enjoyed thinking out loud with her about:

  • risk vs reward in artistic practice
  • trying to hack the human time scale and wondering what it would be like to make art as a 200-year-old
  • simultaneous time – (dance is one way to hack into non-linear time)
  • embodied reality
  • sharing time and space
  • the physiological reward of a having good conversation
  • speaking at the digital writers festival
  • AI art making
  • the politics of humans vs AI making art
  • navigating the embedded dominant paradigm of capitalism
  • assistive technology as a radicalising force
  • algorithmic bias
  • the politics of curating and hospitality
  • constant deferral of pleasure as a capitalist endeavour
  • abstraction of value
  • overcoming deferral
  • empathy as another way of thinking
  • empathy being scrutinised via privilege politics
  • programming club artists into art institution spaces
  • how to provide rigorous support to artists moving between cultural spaces
  • writing music
  • writing scripts for performance
  • keeping a written diary
  • using essays as a form to examine dubious hypotheses and centering emotional writing
  • wanting to be really really good at executing conceptual frameworks through creative expression
  • the unnecessary task of putting pressure on ourselves to speak to people who don’t want to listen
  • the importance of making art for your friends
All music in this podcast is composed and performed by Roslyn Helper
books mentioned:

umwelt collective

Umwelt Collective is Merinda Davies and Lowana-Skye Davies.


we talk about:

  • their show: Re:membering
  • collaborating
  • dance and other things around it
  • where the name umwelt came from
  • working process
  • costumes
  • relationships
  • installation
  • what is useful feedback
  • trying to find the flow
  • creative writing/poetry
  • suppression and consideration
  • being sisters and much more!



lucky lartey

“Are we dancing the way we want to dance?” LL
Lucky Larty is a dancer and artist and choreographer who grew up in Ghana and now lives in Sydney Australia. We talk about his current project “Full Circle” and all the threads that has lead to it.
things mentioned:
gumboot dancing
people asking “where are you from?”
converging lineages of tradition
people mentioned:
Frances Rings
Rachell Dade
Cassandra Merwood
other links:

Sammie Williams

Samantha Williams AKA Sammie D, is the co-director of Elements Collective, a performer, choreographer and educator across Contemporary and HipHop dance.


We talk about her upcoming show “One Way” and the process in the studio as well as the demands of being a mother and partner and teacher.